Enough gasoline already! Let's get with the program...

[jrkepler]

oh and one small thing, there is a massive law of vanishing returns when it comes to electric motors, and it comes up alot quicker than even simple gasolene engines. And thats why my 1966 Buick wildcat does 0-60 in 6 seconds and does the quartermile in under thirteen seconds, with only some modest improvements over the technology of the 1960's. Conversely the only 450 HP electric motors I've seen were diesel electic traction motors on ship unloaders. I mean really, if electric cars were viable preformance machines we'd see them in racing. I mean they've drug out turbines and diesels and rotaries, and radials in the various racing series, no electrics that I know of.

Anyway you can say that electic motors are quicker off the line, alot of people say alot of things are quicker off the line. Rent yourself a helmet, go to your local dragstrip, and prove it. Here's a hint though, my old boat of a buick, as good as it sounds, is beaten, frequently.
_________________
"You idiot you own a Macintosh, the file is fucking gone" -Hunter Cressall

[vexxarr]

Actually, there IS a growing fanbase for true electric car racing. Top speeds are around 160mph. The torque is incredible. The engineering challenges for high performance electric motors are much higher than internal combustion because of this torque. Most automobiles today use far, far less than 450hp. My Celica GTS has a modest 180HP at 7600rpm. 450? Wow...if THAT were the standard we'd all be flying rockets!

The diminishing law of returns is actually less than internal combustion engines - much less. IC engines are devices which convert linear motion to rotary motion - a process who's top rpm is limited by the tensile strength of the metal used for its linear components - any faster and the inertia rips those components apart on a molecular level. Rotary motors have a much, much higher capacity for simple rpm output - higher by orders of magnitude than linear conversion motors.

Your observations about the limited progress of electric motor output in both torque and HP are in fact not true at all. The only limiting factor today is charge duration and capacity. Most industrial motors out perform gasoline power plants in every respect but range.

Every major auto manufacturer in the world has an all electric vehicle on its drawing board - and having personally driven a few of these prototypes BELIEVE ME performance is NOT an issue. You simply cannot imagine what driving an electric performance vehicle is like. Flying does not begin to describe the sensation of freedom and pure speed.

What holds us back is a perceived reluctance on the part of the consumer and fuel infrastructure - recharge and capacity issues once again.

Honestly, I'm not sure where these outdated ideas about electric motors are coming from!

Quaint.
_________________
World Conquest is easy… It’s conquering the inhabitants that gets sticky.

[jrkepler]

well I must say that my knowledge is centered in preformance automobiles, not in electrics. Anyway, will electric motors be the wave of the future? I don't know, there just one of many future technologies that are being developed, Who knows maybe the gap of battery technology will never be overcome and Sterling engines, or some other form or external combustion engine will replace the otto cycle.

You want electrics now, however the technology to make them useful doesn't exist. I mean there are state of the art electric cars now that are available on the market, and they are just as you said quaint, a curiosity, a novelty, thats as much a political statement as a real vehicle. Quick refueling and long range must be matched. People will not trade down, as it is, as easy as it is people still run out of gas. Don't look now people are driving further and further every year. I won't even address that these things, even with all the subsidies and tax breaks and hassle, still demand a premium.

You can't even actually buy an EV-1 can you?
_________________
"You idiot you own a Macintosh, the file is fucking gone" -Hunter Cressall

[jrkepler]

oh just one thing, have you ever driven a preformance gasolene vehicle?
_________________
"You idiot you own a Macintosh, the file is fucking gone" -Hunter Cressall

[vexxarr]

Well of course…but that depends on how you define a performance car.

In all fairness, I have to disclose that I worked in Los Angeles on feature films for twelve years before taking a job at a production company in Birmingham Alabama where I became involved in automotive advertising. There aren’t many wheeled vehicles that I haven’t driven. I don’t think that there are any that I haven’t at least ridden in. I’ve never driven a Lamborghini Countach or Diablo. I’ve never driven any sports cars more than forty years old. I’ve never driven a Shelby Cobra. That said I’ve driven every kind of BMW sold in the US at one time or another. I’ve handled the entire line of Mercedes Benz available in the US. I’ve driven several Ferrari (very poorly I have to admit – they are NOT street machines and my clutch performance was sub par to say the least). Various Spyder incarnations… I’ve driven the actual "Land Master" from Damnation Ally. I've driven a wooden Tank of my own construction.

I’ve had a few custom performance drives on a closed track. I’ve driven almost 160mph in a Porsche 944 Turbo on Highway 15 at night - something I will never ever do again.

What separates electric performance cars from their internal combustion brethren (to me at least – there is no shortage of opinions on the matter) are vibration and clutch. With no clutch (or impellor for that matter) between you and the power, the first thing you notice about an electric sports car is the jolt of power you get off the line. The second thing you notice is the lack of a performance curve. Electric performance vehicles jump off of the line and just accelerate uniformly until they reach the programmed limit of their computer governor. A piston engine has a (false) burst of torque, a let off, increased torque as the RPMs build, a peak and finally speed levels off as RPMs max out. Further, you’ll notice that there are a number of vibrations that lend to the feedback and feel of the experience. The engine itself has several peaks and valleys in its vibration as RPMs climb through the harmonics of the engine. The transmission has its own harmonics that flow and ebb at different times. Finally, road vibration sort of blurs the whole experience together. Some cars such as the Dodge Viper will numb your hands with the amount of engine vibration that comes through the wheel.

In an electric car you only feel (and hear) the road noise. It’s disquieting to fly off of the line and hear nothing from under the hood (except possibly for an anemic whine). There is no sense that you have to engage a mechanical interface to transmit power from the power plant to the wheels. You (incorrectly) feel like the power in IN the wheels. Likewise regenerative braking feels like the wheels are being magnetically dragged to a standstill by the road itself. It’s hard to explain. You don’t feel like a rocket the way you might in a Porsche but you don’t feel tethered to the ground either. The electric pace car I drove felt as if an inexorable force at insane speeds was drawing it across hot asphalt. The acceleration is so sudden that when you first step on the 'gas' you instinctively release the pedal. It takes a strong will and a bit of practice to step on the pedal and keep your foot pressed down. The car I drove was limited to 90mph but the builders told me that it would easily top 160mph. The energy drain would limit the drive time and the handling was so severe that new software would have to be written to make it safe to drive at those speeds.
_________________
World Conquest is easy… It’s conquering the inhabitants that gets sticky.

[vexxarr]

Have you seen these electric sports cars?

The TZero http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home.htm

The 2005 Venturi Fetish
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/venturi_fetish.asp

The Fetish is commercially available and has a range of over 220 miles on an 80amp charge (at a 1 mile to 1 minute linear charge rate).

Division heads from GM (the company I worked with most frequently) will tell you flat out that they have and are ready to market EV's with ranges, speeds and performance well in excess of most American economy cars. Their only hurdle is being convinced that a market exists a priori of committing to a full production line of EV passenger cars. Dealing most often with Pontiac and Buik I can tell you that most EVs would be a trade up from the standard GM offering.

The EV 1 was never offered for sale. It was a lease only and at the end of the market experiment, all EV 1's were called back to GM. The owners did everything in their power to BUY the EV 1's from General Motors - one even offering $1,000,000 cash for the vehicle. The EV 1 was not a true electric vehicle in the sense that it simply took standard piston engineering and replaced the patrolium power plant with an electric motor (in other words, the car had a transmission, differential and disk brakes) but it was the first road ready EV offered to the public for general use.

Toyota had a similar program with redesigned Rav 4's - the difference being that those cars were sold outright. What you might find interesting about that car is that they now get over 110 miles to a charge with an out dated Nickel Metal Hydride battery and they have all gone well over 150 thousand miles on the very same battery these cars came with. Many have well over 240 thousand miles on the factory battery.

Compared to a product (the Pontiac Grand Am for example) which often doesn't function at all utilizing current technology, I fail to see how driving a modest electric vehicle - which is faster, more reliable and less expensive to own - would be any less convenient.
_________________
World Conquest is easy… It’s conquering the inhabitants that gets sticky.

[Roy Batty]

Nifty hybrid Mini?

[vexxarr]

Sweet...Gasoline electric. Like a locomotive (well trains are diesel electric but you get the idea). Love it. Have you seen the Tesla?
_________________
World Conquest is easy… It’s conquering the inhabitants that gets sticky.

[Roy Batty]

Nice, I'll have mine in black
I wonder how they calculate the MPG equivalent?

[gamachinist]

That Tesla looks great,and I really like it's estimated range.
I didn't read the info,just the cover sheet and looked at the picture though.
I wonder at what speed that range was estimated?

I really think the hybrids (gas/electric) are going to be the best thing for people who don't live inside a city.
I seem to remember seeing one of those 70's versions of a battery car
running around Hapeville GA, which is a small town,but enough local services were offered there that you didn't need to go ten miles to get groceries.

Because of my business,I have to usually drive 30 miles one way on the interstates (I know I could drive the surface highways,but it takes three times as long and unfortunatly time is money),so a battery only vehicle would be strecthed pretty thin on range. I can see myself lugging a three
mile long extension cord trying to get a boost,since it would be along way back to a power outlet.
I guess that would be the new road service,hauling a portable generator (dynamo for you Roy) to recharge someones car!

I have all these extra TR 4 Triumphs sitting around.After I retore one and put a V8 in another,maybe by then an electric conversion would be "neat".

I have considered converting an old '50's or 60's big tire scooter to an electric motor and two small batteries for my 1.5 mile trips to the Post Office and parts store and the 2.5 mile trips to the grocery store that finally opened up here.
There is plenty of room for a motor and two deepcycle batteries on that scooter.I've never seen one like it.It's been sitting behind my fathers garage as long as I can remember with no engine,so it has to be over 40 years old.
Or maybe the old Cushman three wheeler my dad took the engine apart and never finished.There is plenty of room for batteries in the back of that thing!
I may do that yet,but I have found that walking to the PO and parts store is almost as fast if I don't have to haul anything heavy back,and I really do need the exercise!

Enough rambling,time to get to work.

[vexxarr]

Good News!

The Tesla's range is estimated at 100mph highway driving...or so they claim. As of right now you could drive an entirely electric vehicle as ranges are all above 60 miles per charge. Regretably, there are no road rated production vehicles on the market as of right now.

The Rav4 electric got better than 90 miles to a charge, a 65mph top speed and performance similar to the Rav4 gasoline. The battery life (here is the kicker) was estimated to be between 60,000 and 100,000 miles. According to Mr. Bagley, the eight or so Rav4s operating in his group in LA have gone between 90,000 and 200,000 and none - as of yet - needed a battery swap.

It seems that with the advent of the Tesla, issues involving range, speed and power have been solved. The LAST obstical remaining is charge time.

Here's a secret: While most cars list 4-8 hours as the time required for a full charge, a "top-off charge" which returns 80% of the range to the vehicle takes only 45min. High capacity batteries take the bulk of the charge very quickly then spend hours filling up the very top end of their total capacity. It's on an inverse parabolic curve. You need a smarter person than me to explain it. Guess it's like parking 1000 cars at an amusement park. The first 80% are easy...packing in the last 20% can take all night.
_________________
World Conquest is easy… It’s conquering the inhabitants that gets sticky.

[Kevin]

Have you seen this one?

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=213453

Regards,
Kevin
_________________
My other ride weighs 500 tons
http://www.nmslrhs.org/

[vexxarr]

Sweet!
_________________
World Conquest is easy… It’s conquering the inhabitants that gets sticky.

[Roy Batty]

That was really quite interesting! (& I never thought I'd say that about anything with Leno in it)
Btw, you do realise that's probably made the next Vexx at least 20 mins late right? ... Ok! back on track then 8)

[Kevin]

Cutting on my steam engine for my old Dodge D50. The enging and tranny are comming out and a steam plant is going in. 1500 psi 42 hp and away.....



Regards,
Kevin
_________________
My other ride weighs 500 tons
http://www.nmslrhs.org/